GradPack Talks: Writing at the Graduate Level, the Multilingual Edition

Transcript:

Shannon Madden
Welcome everybody. This is Grad Pack Talks, a podcast that focuses on resources, experiences and strategies for success from graduate students at NC State University. I’m Shannon Madden.

Jai Jackson
I’m Jai Jackson.

Shannon Madden
And we’re here with Ashish Kapoor, a doctoral student in the Textile Engineering, Chemistry and Science department. Thanks for joining us, Ashish.

Ashish Kapoor
Thanks for having me.

Shannon Madden
Our pleasure. So today’s episode is a follow up on our earlier conversation about writing at the graduate level. This is the multilingual edition. Ashish is an experienced science communicator and is also a multilingual writer. As researchers who study graduate communication support like to say, no one’s first language is academic writing. So graduate students as well as professionals are accessing and enacting disciplinary knowledge through specialized communication conventions. As Christine Casanave has said, academic discourse involves negotiating new forms of jargon formal turns of phrase unfamiliar research methods, theories, and philosophical stances. For these and other reasons, writing at the graduate level is complex, even for those of us who grew up speaking and writing in English. Add to that the challenges of learning a new educational culture and context, being away from your home community, and navigating US customs, visa issues—and for multilingual students the challenges can be even more complex. At the same time, multilingual writers bring really rich linguistic resources to bear on their educational pursuits and U.S. educational institutions don’t do nearly enough to capitalize on those resources and help students bring their knowledges to bear on their academic pursuits or their academic writing in English. So last time we spoke with a home language English speaker. Today we’re speaking with Ashish.

Jai Jackson
So, Ashish can you tell us about yourself, give us a little info on your degree program, and what brought you all the way to NC State University?

Ashish Kapoor
My name is Ashish Kapoor, I joined NC State Wilson College of Textiles in Fall 2015 in the fiber in polymer science Ph.D. program, where I’m researching electronic textiles, or textile-based sensors for health monitoring and biomedical applications. I joined the Wilson College of Textiles because it is a very prestigious institution, and has always been ranked the top in the world in the field of textiles.

Shannon Madden
Nice. So what are you writing right now?

Ashish Kapoor
Currently I’m working on my dissertation.

Jai Jackson
Yes.

Ashish Kapoor
And yes, that’s the big goal right now.

Shannon Madden
And how’s that going? What’s the dissertation about?

Ashish Kapoor
The dissertation is titled, “Fiber based flexible sensors for electronic textiles.” I have already structured my dissertation and have divided it into various chapters, and I’m currently tackling one of the chapters.

Jai Jackson
So in writing, we all have a process. For me, I write two or three pages per day, take a break and keep it going. Tell us, what does your writing process look like?

Ashish Kapoor
So my writing process is very lengthy. There are various parts to it. So first, the most important part for me is to actually define the scope of the topic and break it down into various sub-sections, and then tackle each section one by one. The first step in that is that, for example, I have a subject X, then and start looking at the literature, start saving it simultaneously into some reference manager software which can be RefWorks or Zotero. And also, what I look at is like abstract, figures, and the results, and make a few key notes about those things. Similarly, I’ll create these sub folders which have literature pertaining to a particular section. And then I sit down and I start paraphrasing the contents of that particular section. And so there is like a “dump” document, and then like a real document. So I paraphase in one of the documents and then copy it into the primary document.

Shannon Madden
Wow, that sounds really organized. I went to a workshop in graduate school and they talked about how file management is such a critical part of the process. Sounds like you’ve got that part nailed.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes. Yeah means I’m still learning, and most of the times, means naming the file is really critical, because sometimes you know you name them in a way that you think that it’s very intuitive but next time if you look at it after six months, you will not know how have you like sorted the files. So yes, file management is really critical when you’re writing such a lengthy document.

Shannon Madden
Yeah, and the titles are a thing, too. Like I sometimes will title my documents “final draft.” [laughter] Haha. It’s never the final draft.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes, we always go, final draft 1.0; 1.1; and then it keeps going on.

Jai Jackson
So I often named my files after my kids and whoever is my favorite gets the title name. But that changes so frequently, by the hour, that I’m lost half the time.

Ashish Kapoor
I hope your kids don’t know. Your favorite doesn’t care.

Jai Jackson
I know, but everyone has favorites. So I’m a writer that I like to hide in an open place just because I want to people watch and write at the same time. Where and when do you do your best writing?

Ashish Kapoor
I actually prefer writing alone so that I’m not distracted means if I have more visuals if I have like, I’m a very social person so if I’m in a setting where I’m continuously being exposed to individuals I know, then it can it can decrease my attention span. So, for writing I prefer sitting in a library, like maybe booking a room, or even sitting among other students whom I don’t know so that there is no possibility of interactions. So I prefer sitting and working in the libraries and joining the writing support groups has really helped me which was an experiment I did this fall semester. These workshops are organized by the [NC State] Graduate School. So, in that environment you are motivated that there are other individuals who are at various stages of their degree program, and they are also writing. So that is kind of accountability, you set goals and you follow them, and it’s like a positive peer pressure, but personally I prefer writing in the library, writing alone. And what I think has worked for me, or works in writing is being continuous. Otherwise you lose that train of thought and it’s very hard. So, the biggest hump is starting the writing, and then once you start it, the anxiety starts going away slowly.

Jai Jackson
So, you talk about being continuous writer. For you, do you write, just in big blocks of time or do you take breaks and continue writing or is it just, you know, eight hours, knocking it out, or are you more of a two hours, break, two hours? What’s your preference?

Ashish Kapoor
I think I write in breaks. Only when deadlines are pushing it’s like you have to sit for continuous long hours. But the disadvantage of the second approach is that it really stresses you out, and the output is not the best. It can be improved, but you’re already doing it at the so end that whatever comes out, you just submit it. But I think writing in breaks in a very well planned way produces better quality research output.

Shannon Madden
Yeah, ideally, right? [laughter]

Ashish Kapoor
Ideally, yes.

Shannon Madden
So as we were talking about before, no one’s first language is academic writing. It seems like there’s a perception, especially among senior faculty that the academic writing voice is natural. When in fact the concept of academic writing “voice” is a highly artificial construct that is also very white and very Western. Scholars have also recognized that how multilingual students learn to use English in the first place influences how they use and master academic communication practices. For example, learning to use English primarily from reading and writing in school is very different from learning to use English primarily from being around it and hearing it spoken. So with that in mind, we have a few questions. What’s your first language, and what is academic writing like in that language?

Ashish Kapoor
My first language is Hindi. That’s also my mother tongue. But I was, I started in an English speaking school, which has really helped me. Most of the times, the way things progress is that we memorize certain facts and produce them. So, there are very few opportunities where you’re actually writing in your own words. Other than the subjects like whether it was Hindi or English very hard to write essays on certain topics, write like a 500 word essay on this. So those were the instances only when I recall, or maybe participating in the declamation and debate competition, where you have some script that you have to write. So that was like the original output. Whereas most of the times it was like facts from books, which were like memorized and still paraphrased and written in our own words but we, I used to memorize major chunk of that.

Shannon Madden
That’s interesting. So if you look back on the writing that you did as a master’s student or as an undergraduate, how is what you’re doing now different from those kinds of writing projects?

Ashish Kapoor
So, this is time for some revelation. So I used to think I’m a wonderful writer, unless I started doing my Ph.D. dissertation writing, I think. I think, taking a step back, the important thing to realize is that what is the quality of writing you’re trying to produce—which makes a lot of difference in the way you write—and I have seen that here when the focus is publishing in a high impact journal, the quality of writing which will work in maybe a lower impact factor journal will not qualify for that high impact factor journal. So, the difference in the type of writing—and despite the same content, depends on the final destination where you’re trying to send the document to.

I also did a thesis in my master’s degree, and I did not get so much input on my writing. As long as it looked like a thesis document, it had basic formatting guidelines, I had a literature review which was not plagiarized like more than, like, 10 to 20%. So in my previous master’s program, every thesis was run through a plagiarism software, and I think recently NC State has access to Turnitin software but students do not have, only faculty have access. But in my previous university, all the students were required to personally check whether their documents are qualifying the plagiarism criteria. So, I think I did not get a lot of input on my writing in my past degree program, but I’m getting that input right now. So, I am realizing what are the shortcomings in my writing. So I think this is like, I’m better understanding my ways of writing.

Shannon Madden
Well, it’s not shortcomings but areas for development, right?

Ashish Kapoor
Okay that sounds nice.

Jai Jackson
So you talked about how you’ve progressed from undergrad to masters to your Ph.D. now. What has been your greatest epiphany as a graduate level writer?

Ashish Kapoor
In terms of writing. I would say just that humbling experience that there is scope for improvement.

Jai Jackson
Talk about it.

Ashish Kapoor
And I, that the way I write or what I have written in the past, is not the best. Means, I had a very high expectation that I can communicate well in the form of oral presentations; I can write well because of my some involvement in science communication, but when the game turns to publishing academic papers, things totally change. And it really depends, firstly, on the proper understanding of the theme you’re writing about because in, because of the diversity of audience, it’s important to have a good understanding so you can communicate your point. So, I think the biggest epiphany was just this experience that I am not where I thought I am and I’m, but now I’m on the road of improvement, I’m understanding my—for now, shortcomings—and I’m trying to improve them.

Jai Jackson
I think, I think you said it best. I mean, realizing that we have to be continuously improving and the fact that graduate school will humble you.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes and just adding to that, writing is an evolutionary process. We evolve, we keep growing through the process. It is not a destination, it’s a pathway.

Jai Jackson
Absolutely. And if more people understood that then it would help us to combat issues like imposter syndrome where we feel like we need to be at the absolute highest level the moment that we start classes. And if we are not there, we feel less-than.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes, so imposter syndrome is like—I didn’t even know this terminology like a year ago—but the more you talk to fellow graduate students and other people, we all have a certain degree of this syndrome. And that’s why, like getting involved in like maybe writing groups and other similar activities where individuals are working towards the similar goal, helps you understand that you’re not alone in this journey.

Jai Jackson
Absolutely.

Shannon Madden
Right. Struggle is part of the developmental process.

Jai Jackson
And you’re not alone and also you’re not competing. Because all too often, sometimes academics will make you feel as if you’re competing with the person sitting next to you, when in reality you all made it.

Ashish Kapoor
That’s a wonderful statement. I think this is a philosophical thing but it’s really a great understanding which we all need to have. Every Ph.D. journey or every graduate school journey is a very personal journey. And yes, we should not compare because once we start comparing, we start feeling a little—not in a great state. And rather than improving ourselves, we are just trying to be better than our peers. And maybe they are not setting the right bar for you, and maybe you really have a lot of potential. But if you’re just stuck with this thought that I need to be just, you know, I need to graduate, just a few months before my friends, you’re really not doing justice to the talent that you have.

Shannon Madden
Yeah. Very true. So we’re talking a little about competition and how academia breeds sort of competitive feelings, but the other side of that is collaboration. So how have you navigated collaborating with peers and colleagues on big writing projects?

Ashish Kapoor
It’s interesting you brought this question. So my research project, as I mentioned, is textile-based sensors. It’s a very interdisciplinary research area. Within my research, I collaborate with folks from electrical and computer engineering and biomedical engineering departments. And it’s interesting when I look at jobs which I want to do, that this is a really wonderful skill which people look at the cross-disciplinarily working attitude. I think communication is the key when you’re working in collaborative environments. If you feel like, for example, presenting at a conference or publishing something. It is not just you. The idea has to be communicated in the best possible way to the collaborators so that the individual goals as well as the group goals are met. So I think communication is really the key, key to keeping things transparent. I have a lot of interesting experiences about collaborations, but I think communication is really the key and so that it’s a holistic growth of the group, and your collaborators see you as an asset. And I think as long as they feel that you are an asset to the group, it’s going to be a wonderful and productive journey.

Jai Jackson
That’s interesting. So, we talked about collaboration and how everyone should recognize the benefit that everyone has, but what do you do when there’s a misunderstanding or miscommunication? As with academia, when we’re writing papers, we think about who’s going to be first author, who’s second author, who’s doing this, who’s doing that. What do you do when there is a misunderstanding?

Ashish Kapoor
Firstly, you brought up a good point about having authors and deciding the authorship, I think, as soon as the idea is like you have the first seed of idea in your mind. The first thing is, if you want to be the first author, you need to lead as soon as possible. You should be the one who is developing the outline of the paper; you should be doing the majority of experimental work, for example, even contributing towards writing and like being a leader, that you are designating tasks to various individuals in the group and simultaneously, talking to them about their authorship, that you know if you’re going to pursue like if you’re going to do 40% of the work, you will be the second author on this paper. So I think, as soon as possible—or as early on as you can—designate the responsibilities and mention your interest of being the first author. But yeah, there can be misunderstandings. And the only way to deal with misunderstandings is to actually as openly or just trying to communicate that trying to identify what is the cause of that misunderstanding. Is it because I assumed something that, which the other person did not understand? So a lot of times, misunderstandings arise from assumptions. And that also is dependent on like, it can be cultural and economic differences, or different levels in academia where you are. So I would suggest everyone not to assume, and even if it’s the simplest thing, speak it out so that you there is no room for misunderstanding in the future.

Jai Jackson
Absolutely.

Shannon Madden
Yeah, that’s great advice. So what resources would you say have been most beneficial to you as a writer in your graduate studies?

Ashish Kapoor
As a writer, so NC State libraries gives wonderful access, but I do not access individual databases within the NC State libraries. I use Google Scholar. Google Scholar also has the most up-to-date articles, as far as I think. I would suggest writers to set alerts within Google Scholar so your research area, you can enter keywords and you can turn the alert on. And you can like doing the frequencies that I received the latest journal articles, for example, in the field of textiles or fibers. Like every week they are directly delivered to my inbox and then I so it’s like as writers, judges, students—literature review is like a continuous process. So I think those Google Scholar alerts have really kept me up to date with my field. And having software, I use Zotero mostly, it’s convenient. RefWorks is great too; I used to use RefWorks previously. So I use Google Scholar where I get my literature, and then I keep saving it, keep saving the important papers to the Reference Manager. So simultaneously I believe that is 50% of the task being done. So whenever I am required or asked by someone to write a literature review on this topic, I already have the references; the only thing which I have to do is sit down and read those papers.

Shannon Madden
Yeah,

Ashish Kapoor
So that’s what I do.

Shannon Madden
Yeah. Were there other programs that you participated in that you want to comment on?

Ashish Kapoor
Yes so I have tried to be very active in the various professional development programs offered by the [NC State] Graduate School, which include like the grant writing workshop, the writing groups, creating a professional portfolio. And currently I’m also involved in “Engineering your Video Abstract.” And the common thing which I have seen in all these workshops, is we are trying to communicate what we are doing in as simple words as possible, and also trying to appreciate that, our research is in some way a small contribution to the big body of knowledge and is capable of impacting the society in a positive way.

Shannon Madden
Nice.

Ashish Kapoor
So, all these the participation in all these workshops, has inspired me to think more clearly about my research, and once, and it’s a great satisfaction when you have clarity about the bigger vision of your research. And yes, I also use the same finding in the Three Minute Thesis in which I participated. And that has been the best experience of my whole graduate school journey.

Shannon Madden
You were a finalist, right? Didn’t you win something?

Ashish Kapoor
Yes, so I participated in Three Minute Thesis program. For the audience who do not know, you have three minutes to and one static slide to explain your research to a diverse audience where no technical jargon is allowed. And yes, I was a People’s Choice Award winner, and that was a really wonderful experience. And I believe after that the folks in my college got inspired, and in the following year we had two finalists from the [Wilson] College of Textiles. So I think that has been really a wonderful experience. I had a workshop before that, and I really worked on the slide, and the maximum time I spent was writing the script. I wanted to begin with a catchy line, I will and I the way I memorized the script was I had bullet points in my mind, because it was very hard and under stress, it’s very normal to forget what you want to speak. So, I had these bullet points that I want to start with, what is the bigger vision? Why does it matter? What am I doing, and what is the future? And I think every research can be like, broken down into this category that, why is it important why the world should care about it? What are you exactly contributing? And how does the future look like? Yes, so that was a wonderful experience.

Shannon Madden
Nice. Yeah, great.

Jai Jackson
So what advice would you give to junior graduate students who are on the path to embark on their dissertation?

Ashish Kapoor
Thanks for asking that question. Yeah, beginning my fifth year in the Ph.D., I have just a few small tips about the students who are planning to begin their graduate journey, whether it’s masters or PhD program. I believe that if you’re trying to do research, selection of the research area is very critical, as well as the selection of your advisor. It should not be ideally a compromise because you’re going to live with that field of knowledge for quite some time and you will be using that in your various interviews, and you might even end up working for a big time in your life in that area. So understanding what you want to research in is very important. And it’s okay if they do not know what they like, but most of the times I have seen personally that at least we know what we do not like. So, even by the process of elimination, I know that these are the areas I do not want to work in and I don’t see myself staying in this field for that amount of time. So narrowing it down, thinking clearly, find the pros and cons is very important. And once the topic is selected, I think, understanding the big picture that where your research is going to or what role that your research is going to play in that big body of knowledge. And everybody comes with a certain vision that we want to publish a certain number of papers. And I agree that even if you want to work in academia, or you just want to join industry, research output in the form of papers and presentations is kind of also reflects I would say the quality of your Ph.D., or maybe it is, I should refrain myself. So, what I’m trying to say is that we all want to publish a certain number of papers in our degree program, but due to collaborative reasons, depending on the progress of research, we might not be successful to do that. But I would suggest, staying active in giving poster presentations as well as oral presentations, within the university as well as beyond, including conferences, is a really great way to show your credibility and to stay active in your field of research.

Shannon Madden
Yeah, and to get your name out there.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes, that’s the best framing of words. And in terms of dissertation, the sooner you can have a story of your thesis, the better it is. And most of the time, you think that you know the story, but if the story doesn’t match the vision of your committee or your advisor, you know, it’s not the right story for the right time.

Shannon Madden
What do you mean the story of your dissertation? Could you say a little more about what you mean by that?

Ashish Kapoor
Specifically, what I mean is like the outline of your thesis, we might do a various—. So we select a certain research area and within that, we have certain sub-objectives and we embark on that, and some where we get successes and where we get failures and some—. A professor said in one of the presentations that the world does not need to know what all did you do sequentially. [laughter] They want to know like what you did and how you did it. So yes, for academic papers, though articles say that we all should publish our failures too, but I do not see that happening as of now, still. [laughter] So, specifically to answer your question, outlining the thesis is really important. By story I mean, how are you going to connect the experiments that you did in the first year to what you’re doing in your fourth year of Ph.D. There has to be a logical progression. And that’s what I mean by story, that there was a certain field you tried to explore, for example, materials. You used them to make certain products and demonstrated their use by certain applications. So, the earlier you can have that clear progression and discuss by sitting down with your advisor, and agree upon that. Then, the actual progress towards your dissertation starts. Because I have even at this stage, like I recently had a discussion about the outline of my thesis. So, which was a startling fact to me but it’s also because I did not clearly discuss it beforehand. And the second thing—we all want to, you know, write the whole thesis and make it a beautiful package and gift it to our committee or advisor, but that takes a long time. And so it works differently for different people but this writing chapters and sharing them, sharing the progress even before you submit to your advisor—sharing it to maybe like somebody in the graduate school, who can help you with the writing, having someone else look at your chapter is better. So, one by one, it’s like brick by brick, you’re going to build your thesis house. Rather than, you know, making the whole house and realizing that the base is not strong. So I think it takes away the stress away from you if you’re doing it slowly, step by step.

Shannon Madden
Yeah, nice.

Jai Jackson
So slow and steady wins the race.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes.

Jai Jackson
It’s not a sprint; it’s a marathon. Similar to what you said earlier, the doctoral journey is a marathon, and it should not be taken lightly and it shouldn’t be rushed.

Ashish Kapoor
One interesting thing which I’ve seen is that the moment you start having that feeling, “I’m almost done; I need to do this; I need to get out”—I don’t know why it happens, but that’s the moment when things start to stretch and elongate because I have deeply thought about it. It’s mostly because of the lack of focus or the shift of focus. Because when you are having that feeling that I just want to do this much and just get away or this, you know, I’m almost there I have to do this, but I think having that patience and that perseverance until the time you’ve have defended your degree is really critical to have peace of mind, and a successful and nice journey. Otherwise, a lot of anxiety develops and stress comes along.

Jai Jackson
That’s interesting because—I agree, you know, I see a lot of students who get to the point of finishing coursework and becoming a candidate, and they find an opportunity to go work professionally and say to themselves, I’ll finish the degree, I’ll write the dissertation now that’s it. So how do you keep your mind focused on finishing, and staying the course when, at this point, you’ve been in coursework for two or three years, and you really want to just get back into the professional realm of things; you’re tired of being a graduate student and you just want to be a professional?

Ashish Kapoor
I like that question a lot. So, yes, it is difficult, because, so, as an analogy, we are in a tunnel, and the professional world is at the end of the tunnel. And we have started with this candle, which is slowly and slowly melting as you’re walking through the tunnel. So I would say yes when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, you want to run faster, but then your flame might go off. So, what I would say is that understanding the fact that if you’re not able to successfully finish your dissertation—even if that professional world is just one step away from you—you do, you will not be able to access that. So, understanding that you continuously need to groom yourself so that you become strong candidate to be a part of that professional world, but also keeping the focus and just like, what I mean is that keep doing the necessary things regularly, which will keep you, so you don’t have to run with a candle, you can just take slow and steady long steps until the reach the end. So, it is important to prepare ourselves for the future by various professional development activities within the university. And I really recommend students taking advantage of those resources because these things so seem so like common, but only when you go to the workshop you realize no my résumé is not good, my cover letter is not good, my, you know, interviewing skills are not as great, because we think that these soft skills are considered, we even take it so that we are good and what can I learn more. But once you start getting involved in such activities you realize there’s a lot more to learn. So coming back to the point I think we must continuously develop ourselves professionally so that we are a strong candidate to get those wonderful jobs which we are seeking, but also not forget simultaneously, that all that thing is only going to be in your in your pocket if you are able to successfully complete the journey you are on.

Shannon Madden
If you can get through the tunnel with your candle still lit.

Ashish Kapoor
Yes, and then you just have to blow it out when you want it.

Jai Jackson
Dropping gems here, Ashish. Dropping gems.

Ashish Kapoor
Thank you.

Shannon Madden
So our last question is about your future aspirations. So what are your aspirations as a researcher or what do you want to be known for as a writer and a scholar.

Ashish Kapoor
I really like that question. I want to be known for three things irrespective of the career I choose. Okay, I want to be in research. So, I want to be known as someone who does unique and interesting research, works on problems which impact people’s lives. That’s the first thing I want to be known as. I do not want to do something for just for the sake of publishing a wonderful paper. That’s great; that is required to progress in the research world. But if my research can also solve a real world problem and impact people’s lives in a positive way, I would want the world to know me like that. I want to continuously stay engaged in science communication activities, because as a researcher I feel if our responsibility if we, if we believe our responsibility is to do cutting edge research, it’s also our responsibility to share what we do with the society, because indirectly in a certain scheme of things, they also have invested resources in us. And I think it’s our duty to share what we do in the laboratory and why it matters in the real world. So I would consciously stay engaged in science communication activities. I also have a vision of having like a science talk show in the future as well as podcasts, so that it also inspires other people and the last thing I want to be known as is a wonderful mentor and a motivator. I tried to do this a little bit in my department, where I always talked to the new admits who come in. I also was a part of the graduate student panel in a seminar course where I shared how to find tips about finding an advisor, what all resources are available, what you should do, how you should participate in extracurricular activities, because once you come to graduate school it’s very easy to just become very academically focused and forget participation. But I think personality is such a thing, you need to keep working on it, you know, and because that’s a part of your overall personality that’s a part of life that’s not the whole life. And our overall success in life depends not just on that academic thing we are pursuing, but overall how we have, how we contribute to the society, how we relate and the quality of our relationships. So I want to be known as a motivator, who people can look up to and get inspired and if he can do it, it’s possible; I can do it too. And I also want to be a mentor. And I try to help as many people as I can.

Shannon Madden
Nice. That’s beautiful. I’m sure you’ll have no trouble achieving that goal. So thanks again, so much, for sharing your experiences about writing in graduate school today, Ashish. It was a great discussion.

Ashish Kapoor
Thank you so much for having me. It was a wonderful podcast.